I want to be good, I want to be liked, but most of all, I want to be authentic, including on issues of race

"Capital, we are told, must flow freely around the world to ensure international prosperity".

The primary purpose of the free flow of capital is to increase the earning power of that capital for its owners, surely?

". . . when [the poor] seek to gain access to the wealthiest countries - the very ones which created the rules that keep them poor - the doors are closed".

That, Gary, is a classic example of passing the buck: my (white) people are responsible for keeping your (black) people poor.

There is some truth in it, I agree, but a far more important reason, I suggest, for most of your people remaining so bitterly poor is that intelligent, talented, and well-educated black people, like yourself, instead of staying (or returning) home and helping your people create a prosperous society of their own, choose to come to (or stay in) already prosperous white countries in Europe or America, where, like you, they do very well for THEMSELVES.

You don't see many Japanese or Taiwanese, for example, desperate to get to Europe or North America. That is because sufficient numbers of them have stayed (or returned) home and used Western science and technology (plus their own) to create, not just their own prosperous society, but one suited to their own history, traditions, mentality and tastes - thus avoiding all the conflicts that arise when immigrants live in a host society, with a history, traditions, mentality and tastes that are not their own.

This is the main reason why black people often do not get the respect they would like, and it's individuals like you, Gary, who are largely to blame, enjoying the fruits of European (whitemen's) civilization while leaving your own people to get on with being poor.

It is not just black people in general or you in particular, Gary, that I'm criticizing. North Europeans, like myself, are no better. We tend to behave in exactly the same way (no doubt, because we members of the same "prime ape" species). 2000 years ago, when my people were more backward than black Africa is today, individuals took advantage of vastly superior Roman civilization also at the expense and to the neglect of their OWN people.

When the Romans and their superior civilization left, my people descended back into barbarism. It took us almost a thousand years to get OUR act together and create a civilisation equal to and eventually superior to that of the Romans.

There is no reason why it should take Africans (and other backward societies) that long, since the scientific and technological know-how is now freely available (thanks to the Internet) to everyone (i.e. peoples). What's essential, though, is that every people creates its own society, which isn't beholden to another, host society, because that, as we are now experiencing, is a source of endless dissatisfaction, lack of (self) respect and conflict.

2nd Post

I appreciate all your responses in defence of your hero, Gary, but stand by the points I made. As you make amply clear, they are not beyond criticism, but I believe they contain some truth and are well worth giving serious consideration to.

I once tried imagining what it would be like if modern civilisation had developed in Africa instead of in Europe, and that my parents had emigrated there from a backward Europe, so that I, a white man, was living in a world totally dominated by black people, their social institutions, their history and culture, their achievements in science and technology etc., just as black people in Europe live in a world completely dominated my white men, their history, culture and achievements. And you know what? I couldn't do it. I honestly couldn't imagine it.

It was a very sobering exercise, which made me doubt that many black people will ever feel entirely happy (I couldn't imagine being at all happy) living in a society so dominated by a different race of people to my own.

More of my views on the MADNESS of mass immigration, multiculti society and the melting pot at http://www.spaceship-earth.org/Letters/Editor/Index-non-pc.htm

3rd Post

This is a historical occasion (for me, at least): the first time I've had one of my posts removed from a CiF thread. The ideas it contains are unconventional and controversial, I agree, but surely not offensive or in any way contrary to CiF's talk policy. Maybe (hopefully) it was removed by accident. It is important to have it on the thread, not just for the ideas it contains (my subjective view), but because others have responded to it and what they say makes no sense or gives a negative impression of me if others cannot read what I actually wrote.

So, here it is again, and (dear Editor) please leave it up: See first post above.

4th Post

[doesnotexist], Can't you just accept that we have very different perspectives and ways of feeling? You want me to forget my sense of ethnic identity and embrace the "melting pot" (if I understand you correctly), but I don't want to. I respect you, but I do not wish to join you; I cannot, not without doing violence to my own deep feelings (and becoming a "bigot and a hypocrite").

You obviously find some of the things I've said offensive. I'm sorry about that, but would you rather I lied about them? Then I really would be a "bigot and a hypocrite".

I do not rule out the possibility that my attitudes might change. I'm sure they will to some extent. Whether that will bring us closer or not, I don't know. In the meantime, I hope we can mutually respect each other's differences.

5th Post

[doesnotexist], You are patronizing me when you say that you hope I will change in "the direction of greater tolerance and understanding". Relatively speaking, I don't think that I am so lacking in either (although both depend on what we are referring to). I seem to have more tolerance and understanding of you and your standpoint, for example, than you of mine.

But then, you believe your standpoint to be more noble and righteous, than mine. Perhaps it is, but I'm not so sure (of you or myself).

I don't have a "blind spot in seeing that we are all people", either. Far from it. I'd much rather be friends with a nice black guy than with a nasty white guy (surprise, surprise!), but the ethnic connection (shared ancestors, history etc.) is still stronger between me and the white guy, and IS important (to me).

Of course, at the most fundamental and important level, we are all human beings (worthy of equal respect etc), but we don't spend all our time hovering in such high and rarefied planes, but down here on Earth, where differences and biases exist and matter. And it is not helpful when people like you insist that they SHOULDN'T matter. They do (although the extent varies greatly with circumstances) and we need to deal with them in as rational and humane a way as possible. Not suppress and deny them! Which, under intolerable pressure from people like you, is what we are doing at the moment.

I want to be good, I want to be liked, but most of all, I want to be authentic.

We are misunderstanding each other, because you believe that any importance conceded to race is bad: we are all just people, and race should be irrelevant. Well, to me it's not irrelevant, and I don't think it is to many people, if they are honest about it and not just conforming under the pressure of mainstream ideology that is an understandable, but unhealthy and unsustainable, over-reaction to the insanity and horrors of Nazi racial doctrine (as well as to unjust and inhumane apartheid and segregation laws).

Race IS important and we need to talk about it, but not under the assumption that it SHOULD be irrelevant and that anyone (especially if they are white) for whom it is an important or essential part of their identity is a "racist".

My homepage: http://www.spaceship-earth.org

To: Comment at the Guardian Re: I want to be good, I want to be liked, but most of all, I want to be authentic, including on issues of race Date: Monday 22 January 07

In response to a Guardian article, "The west persists in using race to decide who can cross its borders", Gary Younge on racial profiling and discrimination Link to article and thread at The Guardian. "Capital, we are told, must flow freely around the world to ensure international prosperity". The primary purpose of the free flow of capital is to increase the earning power of that capital for its owners, surely? ". . . when [the poor] seek to gain access to the wealthiest countries - the very ones which created the rules that keep them poor - the doors are closed". That, Gary, is a classic example of passing the buck: my (white) people are responsible for keeping your (black) people poor. There is some truth in it, I agree, but a far more important reason, I suggest, for most of your people remaining so bitterly poor is that intelligent, talented, and well-educated black people, like yourself, instead of staying (or returning) home and helping your people create a prosperous society of their own, choose to come to (or stay in) already prosperous white countries in Europe or America, where, like you, they do very well for THEMSELVES. You don't see many Japanese or Taiwanese, for example, desperate to get to Europe or North America. That is because sufficient numbers of them have stayed (or returned) home and used Western science and technology (plus their own) to create, not just their own prosperous society, but one suited to their own history, traditions, mentality and tastes - thus avoiding all the conflicts that arise when immigrants live in a host society, with a history, traditions, mentality and tastes that are not their own. This is the main reason why black people often do not get the respect they would like, and it's individuals like you, Gary, who are largely to blame, enjoying the fruits of European (whitemen's) civilization while leaving your own people to get on with being poor. It is not just black people in general or you in particular, Gary, that I'm criticizing. North Europeans, like myself, are no better. We tend to behave in exactly the same way (no doubt, because we members of the same "prime ape" species). 2000 years ago, when my people were more backward than black Africa is today, individuals took advantage of vastly superior Roman civilization also at the expense and to the neglect of their OWN people. When the Romans and their superior civilization left, my people descended back into barbarism. It took us almost a thousand years to get OUR act together and create a civilisation equal to and eventually superior to that of the Romans. There is no reason why it should take Africans (and other backward societies) that long, since the scientific and technological know-how is now freely available (thanks to the Internet) to everyone (i.e. peoples). What's essential, though, is that every people creates its own society, which isn't beholden to another, host society, because that, as we are now experiencing, is a source of endless dissatisfaction, lack of (self) respect and conflict. 2nd Post I appreciate all your responses in defence of your hero, Gary, but stand by the points I made. As you make amply clear, they are not beyond criticism, but I believe they contain some truth and are well worth giving serious consideration to. I once tried imagining what it would be like if modern civilisation had developed in Africa instead of in Europe, and that my parents had emigrated there from a backward Europe, so that I, a white man, was living in a world totally dominated by black people, their social institutions, their history and culture, their achievements in science and technology etc., just as black people in Europe live in a world completely dominated my white men, their history, culture and achievements. And you know what? I couldn't do it. I honestly couldn't imagine it. It was a very sobering exercise, which made me doubt that many black people will ever feel entirely happy (I couldn't imagine being at all happy) living in a society so dominated by a different race of people to my own. More of my views on the MADNESS of mass immigration, multiculti society and the melting pot at http://www.spaceship-earth.org/Letters/Editor/Index-non-pc.htm 3rd Post This is a historical occasion (for me, at least): the first time I've had one of my posts removed from a CiF thread. The ideas it contains are unconventional and controversial, I agree, but surely not offensive or in any way contrary to CiF's talk policy. Maybe (hopefully) it was removed by accident. It is important to have it on the thread, not just for the ideas it contains (my subjective view), but because others have responded to it and what they say makes no sense or gives a negative impression of me if others cannot read what I actually wrote. So, here it is again, and (dear Editor) please leave it up: See first post above. 4th Post [doesnotexist], Can't you just accept that we have very different perspectives and ways of feeling? You want me to forget my sense of ethnic identity and embrace the "melting pot" (if I understand you correctly), but I don't want to. I respect you, but I do not wish to join you; I cannot, not without doing violence to my own deep feelings (and becoming a "bigot and a hypocrite"). You obviously find some of the things I've said offensive. I'm sorry about that, but would you rather I lied about them? Then I really would be a "bigot and a hypocrite". I do not rule out the possibility that my attitudes might change. I'm sure they will to some extent. Whether that will bring us closer or not, I don't know. In the meantime, I hope we can mutually respect each other's differences. 5th Post [doesnotexist], You are patronizing me when you say that you hope I will change in "the direction of greater tolerance and understanding". Relatively speaking, I don't think that I am so lacking in either (although both depend on what we are referring to). I seem to have more tolerance and understanding of you and your standpoint, for example, than you of mine. But then, you believe your standpoint to be more noble and righteous, than mine. Perhaps it is, but I'm not so sure (of you or myself). I don't have a "blind spot in seeing that we are all people", either. Far from it. I'd much rather be friends with a nice black guy than with a nasty white guy (surprise, surprise!), but the ethnic connection (shared ancestors, history etc.) is still stronger between me and the white guy, and IS important (to me). Of course, at the most fundamental and important level, we are all human beings (worthy of equal respect etc), but we don't spend all our time hovering in such high and rarefied planes, but down here on Earth, where differences and biases exist and matter. And it is not helpful when people like you insist that they SHOULDN'T matter. They do (although the extent varies greatly with circumstances) and we need to deal with them in as rational and humane a way as possible. Not suppress and deny them! Which, under intolerable pressure from people like you, is what we are doing at the moment. I want to be good, I want to be liked, but most of all, I want to be authentic. We are misunderstanding each other, because you believe that any importance conceded to race is bad: we are all just people, and race should be irrelevant. Well, to me it's not irrelevant, and I don't think it is to many people, if they are honest about it and not just conforming under the pressure of mainstream ideology that is an understandable, but unhealthy and unsustainable, over-reaction to the insanity and horrors of Nazi racial doctrine (as well as to unjust and inhumane apartheid and segregation laws). Race IS important and we need to talk about it, but not under the assumption that it SHOULD be irrelevant and that anyone (especially if they are white) for whom it is an important or essential part of their identity is a "racist". My homepage: http://www.spaceship-earth.org